I am not faulting anyone or saying that Calvinists are lazy. Ive done better with some on TWW than others, many times because of my own insensitivity. . Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. Everything you are saying here is consistent with a Reformed view of human responsibility. We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. Learn as I go, mistakes & big mess. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. Sproul Ive learned much from him, though I dont always agree. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. Joel B. I do hope when I sad that comment, I said illogical TO ME, as in general I hesitate to call other people views illogical. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. But the rest of the bad stuff? On the other thread, I commented about the issue of sovereignty and the misunderstanding a lot of people have about the concept of sovereignty. Under that, Calvins page count is over 2400 pages of theological system, over TEN TIMES the length of a typical genre novel of the Seventies, over FIVE TIMES the length of a typical paperback today, and at least 2/3 the length of the Lord of the Rings. This is a list of lists of Christian theologians organized by denomination, century, nationality, and additional specialized categories. An infant does not want, nor desire steak. With fear and trembling I'll list Sren Kierkegaard. It turns out it wasnt that easy. With all due respect to the Jeffs, look at their root assumption, and the glaring contradiction: they constantly maintain that TRUTH as a function of God can by no means be apprehended by finite humans, and yet resolutely declare in the same breath that this is the very proof of the soundness of their doctrine. It doesnt cause comfort, which might be expected, but revulsion because of the nature of evil. Although occasionally hurt by these accusations of heresy, he responds like a gentleman. They MUST insist you agree with themit is implied in the very protest to my assertion: You dont understand me; you cant understand me; thus, your only response is to AGREE that you could be wrong. Shares words of wisdom & advice with you. Never mind those 2400+ pages of Perfectly-Parsed Theology also stem from the same base assumptions about God as Mohammed that Gods Omnipotent Will overrides everything else about God, never mind physical reality. Lin wrote: They are his laws; they are not independent in nature. Dee, thank you for sharing that testimony, and article. Glad to have someone who gets my background! In light of this, RC understands that free will cannot possibly be free, by definition. The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child. And its complicated by the same problem that David came up against (and I quote the Psalm not because Im trying to educated everyone but because it puts it so well): If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were rising against me, I could hide. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. Rather, it is a doctrine that expresses classical Jewish orthodoxy, Muslim orthodoxy, and Christian orthodoxy with respect to the nature of God. First list Randy Alcorn Thabiti Anyabwile Tom Ascol Voddie Baucham Joel Beeke Alistair Begg Jon Bloom Loraine Boettner James Pettigru Boyse John Calvin (of course) D.A. @ janet: God in nature, God in history, God in grace. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. Where we end, he begins. BTW-Wade Burleson told his church my conversion story which generated a few laughs. Admittedly, Im not famous enough to have followers trying to define Bulbeckism. I opened it in Pages, then assiduously pruned out many, many pages of endnotes and bibliography, and numerous prefaces etc that werent Calvins. Demeaning can also occur by passive-aggression, which is the preferred method of the more academic among us. You personally may not think Cal teaches X, but there are plenty of other Cals who do. But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions.. God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways. The greatness of God must be understood in a different way because this construct caused harm so deep that it tore into the core of me and made me wish for eternal death. He exercises his power and sovereignty over all created things. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. And speaking for myself, I take that conflict ( as an adult, as a student of scripture, having read many books on Calvinism) very seriously. Otherwise, you get dismissed as a hayseed rube who is barely literate and not qualified to question Calvinism. And even if God has blessed them, more often that not, Gods blessing is a resource, not a reward. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. I would really like to understand this assertion you made. We are glad that you do. Even if they are wrong, there are probably some good issues that are worth being explored. you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. Another thank you, this time for writing tenet instead of tenant. Anyway, if this means that God made you say the words, and made you think the thoughts that led to them, this is not what Calvin believed, though I think Hyper-Calvinists believe this. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. Should the conversation be halted? I think these are minor issues, but it is what it is. How one can be labeled an Arminian after a decade and a half as an SGM bobblehead is beyond me. And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, "I believe" andcrossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. This is what some people have heard their entire life. And to be honest, using the TULIP definition of calvinist, Id have to say Im a 2 point calvinist (I believe in the perseverence of the saints, and total depravity if it means every aspect of our nature has been marred by sin.) Green 27. Agree. But I really, truly want to be done with the Paul! Quote - "A pure heart won't get us out of conflict and controversy. Resistance is futile.. That is, the non-Calvinist can say whatever he or she wants and the Calvinist just has to take it. I never minded using it in the past because it was just a shorthand for my views on what it means to be saved by grace; I wasnt really arguing with anyone, and I figured as shorthand, it was alright. If you read non-Calvinism is evil youd probably feel a desire to defend your viewpoint too. We do better together than we do on our own. You can even put your feet up I dont mind! There are some big ones where I do not agree (for example, he is quite patriarchal, even though he doesnt make as big a deal about it as some of the more outspoken complementarians). Best Overall non calvinist systematic theology: This non calvinist systematic theology is the king of the hill. I dont think my faith would have survived such a horrible doctrine. The Reformed doctrine of salvation is commonly represented by the acrostic TULIP (also known as the five points of Calvinism ): T - total depravity. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. Prayer Requests http://www.seattlepi.com/news/us/article/Head-of-Southern-Baptist-school-marks-20-years-4780941.php. I just want an equal seat at the table. There are anti-Calvinists with websites who have examples, quotes taken from books by pro-Calvinists where the pro-C equates Cal to the Gospel itself, their point being to hint that anyone not embracing Cal is not a Christian, then you have the Cals who come right out and say it. I cant make it all fit so I go with what I honestly believe and hold loosely to the conclusions. Ever. So, for example, we just did this study of the WCF with a a group at my church. Here is where I part company with much of Christian ideology, and heres why: Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. If this is so, its really astounding. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshippers. Some of the resources that have helped me to be a non calvinist are. It was populated by extremely insecure . Notwithstanding, non-Calvinist Bible commentaries have largely become marginalized in our present day, with large Christian book publishers simply refusing to print them. Would you want to answer that one? It's because Caleb was allegedly involved in multiple sexual relationships while on staff at daddy's church and he was, The Gospel Coalition now says not everyone can be a missionary. Yet why do I still love Jesus, the Bible and read so many Christian authors? My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. I understand its maddening to shoot at a moving target. Or if they reject it because they think it teaches that God loves to abuse his children. Toward that end, here are five Baptist theologians from the past I commend as must reading for every Baptist pastor. @ Muff Potter: These tenets include, An emphasis on three foundational covenants: redemption, works, and grace An emphasis on the continuity between the Old and New Testament They cant seem to express their experience and pain without having a conversation with some authentic Calvinist/Reformer/Tulip believer (Whatever that means. Im glad you brought this up, though, I probably need to put a disclaimer on the Calvin Free-For-All post. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. Does that make my stance clearer? If we get to where we can podcast, Ill drop you a link. Roger E. Olson (born 1952) is Professor of Theology, George W. Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University, Waco, Texas, USA. Advocate & Solicitor of the High Court of Malaya. Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. And its a big enough issue that RC Sproul re-badges it to Radical Corruption. I believe in Penal Substitutionary Atonement. people who call themselves Calvinist have never really read Calvin. Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. I am not trying to argue doctrine, because that is not my or anyone elses business here. Carson D. James Kennedy J.I. They may, and most probably do, differ on other areas of theology but at least in soteriology, they do not hold to what is commonly known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. And God obviously held back from rescuing me for reasons that I do not yet understand. To me, there is a huge difference. I know the WCF does not say it. Been there, done that, have the scars (healing, but still) to prove it! This soteriological view is named after him because he is best remembered for his plethora of writings on this theological subject. Yes, God loves you. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? Many of their sayings and actions cannot stand the test of time, the test of logic, and most important the test of loving your neighbour. . This was the feeling my wife and I got upon entering the world of neocalvinism in 2008. They are 1) the extent of man's depravity, 2) whether election is conditional, 3) the extent of Christ's atonement, 4) the nature of God's grace and 5) whether Christians will/must persevere in the faith. 1) That article. Im so glad that God rescued me from my foray into Calvinism a couple of years ago. Arminianism: Because of the Fall, man has inherited a corrupted, depraved nature. Happy Holidays. I have been given books and literature from But there are reasons not to make it an issue. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding. Westboro Baptist uses the Bible for a proof text for hatred. It sounds to me like a generation of bloggers has mainstreamed hyper-Calvinism. Anyway, its an article called Are There Two Wills In God?, 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. We dont have to dwell on our differences. I was drawn to the faith forseveral years due to my reading as well as viewing Billy Graham on the television. In fact, with respect and not intending to hurt feelings, it is the Calvinists who are misrepresenting their own doctrine by refusing to acknowledge the contradictions (whichthey do this by arguing that truth really cant be known). There is a reason there has been a debate for centuries. He is NOT against us, but thank God, He is for us!! And when hubby realized he was a sinner in need of forgiveness, he knew nothing about Calvinism or Arminismhe just called himself a believer. . what, exactly, is this thing called glory that we bring to God? We can also agree that God is the author of evil doctrine is evil. They will tend to use hyperbole to make their point. This is fine too, and actually more pleasant for everyone. I myself am a man, and know all too well, the sins and short-comings of mankind. I dont know if that helps or confuses- I wish I could have quoted more. whats so complicated about that? This is the reason I stopped reading JAs thread on Calvinism, and its the reason I will my best to stop reading this one. They are charitable and give us the benefit of the doubt. By which they really mean: God hasnt given you the grace to perceive; or, as my mother in law likes to say to end all discussion I just know that I know that I know. I ask that you likewise dont look down on me and others who hold this view of God. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life. Here is my point as a non-theology major. Im eagerly awaiting my next blog post, too The blog kind of fell off the wayside due to some personal stuff that ate up most of my time. I.E. Not that Im really doing this all that whole-heartedly. Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. It is only partly totally contaminated with leaven. Regarding the idea of God controlling every molecule, Sproul (and the Westminster Confession of Faith) asserts that God is in control of everything, but never in such a way to do violence to the will of man or make God responsible for evil. So very reasonable. He does not reject the Gospel, but he does reject predestination as presented by Calvin. 8520 / YR. New Geneva Theological Seminary - Colorado. Rank No. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. @ Arce: And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said to him, You are right, Teacher. (Cue Calvinists crowing in predestined triumph) If the Institutes were a lifes work, Id expect a little length. Along with the traditional stuff, I have the definitive collectio of Star Trek ornaments including the Borg Cube which says (when turned on) We are the Borg. For example, the word total in Total Depravity is an absolutethere is no such rational idea as partly total, which is what some Calvinists want to say when they declare that humans are not as bad as they could beas if this matters in the dualistic Calvinist paradigm: God is Good, and youare not. I know the moving target frustrates you, but when you say so many and this is directly in contrast to both my personal experience and the most important historical confession of the faith, I get frustrated. Much is mystery and humans so want to solve the mystery. Hes describing man, not God. Some Calvinists who want to make a distinction between hyper calvinism and proper Calvinism will gravitate to these equivocations in an effort to convince youand I suspect themselvesthat God in their construct is not some despotic puppet master who controls all things including abuse, rape, etc (e.g. How wonderful to remember those days! every denomination that isn't explicitly Calvinist: all of them except Presbyterians and Reformed every denomination that is explicitly non-Calvinist: Methodists, Pentecostals, Adventists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox Prof_Acorn 2 yr. ago 1550-1616), who was not. Hmm Apostles and Nicene, indeedy-do. EGOTISM. These include Park Street Church in Boston with Paul Toms as pastor; Chapel Hill Bible Church in North Carolina with Jim Abrahamson as pastor and Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas with Pete Briscoe as pastor. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. The larger discussion is one I think those who wish to explore this issue would find interesting, but I simply cannot quote all of it (and I hope its OK to quote as much as I do here- if this will create legal issues for the blog, please strike the comment). It is the ideas that underlie what Calvinism discusses that are problematic for all humans. When I, a Calvinist (as much as would prefer not to wear the title), hear someone say Calvinism is evil, yes I want to defend it. And thanks for your honest answers. JeffS we were writing at the same time. their humanity is often put on a shelf in defense of a system of belief. If God had not give Adam and Eve a test and just stuck them there in the Garden with no choices, or had God forced them to be good, that itself is not an act of good, and God would have had two robots on his hands. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? Hunt, Finney, Hyles, and Billy Graham would number in the non (anti)-calvinists that I personally have less respect for. We can connect on our shared faith and heart for the abused. They equate Calvinism as spiritually intellectual stuff and non-Calvinist theology as far below reformed doctrine. Tell himyou love himanyway. I don't get him and he doesn't get me but we can still try to love and respect one another. I admit, I tend to just let people rant any way they want to and hold them (so to speak) when they are done. He said he found comfort from it. For example, I will admit that I do not see how a good, all powerful God can exist while evil also exists. I view myself as rescued by God and dependent on his grace. But something has changed in the last number of years. I have to admit-this made me giggle. I. Howard Marshall 28. The list consists of 89 members. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. Please feel free to cut and paste comments to which you are responding over at that other post. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? The word Gospel which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. @ dee: But I can say, knowing what I now know about God, that God would never ever ever have set the evil I suffered in place intentionally. We need robust physiotherapy (which invariably hurts, but in a good way not least because at least in part you do it yourself rather than just being done to). Does that make me not a Calvinist? Wesley and Whitefield came from opposite sides of the argument and yet I understand were able to have tolerable, if not friendly, relationships surely an encouragement to everyone else? . When I look at myself, I think of my own salvation from a TULIP perspective. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. I am loving this discussion!!!!!! A brain tumor has already been successfully removed, which gives us hope for the next surgery (lung, rib, chest area) and the radiation/chemo to follow. I am having trouble keeping up with all the comments between the two. Accept that many Calvinists have never experienced a doctrinally rigorous, non-Calvinist church. Thanks for the kind words; I can only hope that they are at least partially true. Or maybe a better example would be if someone said The practice of withholding baptism from infants is evil, Im sure people would rush to defend their position. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. The only real knowledge is surrendering your mind to their interpretive assumptions on anything. Regarding the 3rd view- well, I dont know if Ive stated this clearly before, but Ill give it a go just to be clear. The article you listed included the following quote from Mohler:Mohler says the seminarys current prosperity is a sign of Gods blessing on an institution that rejected liberal trends in society and returned to more conservative social ideas. It affirms that God is sovereign., Pg 79: To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you. @ Daisy: Online discussions of religion and politics usually end by going up in flames, with a lot of nastiness to boot. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. Have you forgotten his evangelism tours where there were great multitudes of rebaptisms? That should be enough to cause himto squirm. The title suggests hes going to argue that something I dont agree with and Cavlinists historically do not believe is false. Three of their principal concerns were believer's baptism, sectarian withdrawal from society, and religious liberty. John Hagee. Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. I have read at his site just a little bit and so far have found many of his thoughts very satisfying on all levels. circles, and here are the things that were primary messages: 1) God predestines some for salvation, and some for hell. Every puzzle piece in its perfect place, no room for any doubt @ Darcyjo:I wish I could hear you preach. So MY goals when I talk about Calvinism here on the forum are to a) clear up misconceptions that would cause people to unnecessarily reject the theology so that they can know for real what it is they are rejecting. He does not back down on what he believes, yet responds to such denunciations with a gentle manner. Does this sound like a CULT(TM) to you? Benjamin Keach (1640-1704) Keach served as the pastor of Horse-lie-down church in Southwark, England. This way of thinking goes against what Calvin said about freewill, the Westminster Confession of Faith says about freewill, and what every Calvinist Ive ever met says about freewill. So how does it work that God is in control of every molecule without circumventing the free will of man? Or the ideological roots of abuse. Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp. However, he presentedOlson as a man of good will. Enter fatalistic determinism. They probably have read other books about Calvin doctrines, but never the original. Why is Calvin even part of the discussion, period? And its a big enough issue that RC Sproul re-badges it to Radical Corruption. The guy wearing glasses in the video gave an interesting explanation, though he chose to use the Fall in the Garden, rather than a more contemporary example. If Im wrong, I apologize. Going to church in the north during those days was different. Whatever part of the stream a Calvinist has adopted (and there are several streams), calling ones self a Calvinist means taking responsibility for the parts of the broader construct that are damaging.
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